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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The line “I brought you into this world and I’ll take you out” is often used jokingly, but it may be accurate when it comes to the FBI and the .40 S&W cartridge, especially in light of a 2014 report by the FBI’s highly respected Training Division.

First, let’s revisit a little history, shall we?

The .40 S&W cartridge only exists because of the FBI. It grew out of the FBI’s search for better ammo after the famous 1986 FBI Miami shootout where two agents were killed and five wounded. The FBI laid a lot of the blame, right or wrong, on poor ammo performance in that gunfight. The suspects suffered fatal wounds…but kept on fighting.

If you pay any attention at all to used gun sales, especially law enforcement trade-ins, you will see that the market is flooded with .40s. There is a very specific reason for that; law enforcement is moving away from the .40 S&W in droves.

It is not that their guns are aging; it is that they are determining that there is now a better alternative to the .40 S&W, and that is the 9mm. Yes, what is old is now new again, what was bad is now good.
are they moving away from the .40 because it doesn't work? no more like the 9mm is cheaper and to save money. anyone that shoots knows a box of 40 is about 6-8 dollars difference and when you buy a lot that adds up


Read more: Is .40 S&W Dead? - Firearms News
 
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It is to me

I have always considered it little better than a fad. never owned one, don't ever plan to

Back in the 90's a bunch of guys I knew were all hot to sell their 9's & get guns in .41 Action Express, then it was 10mm, then it was .40 S&W then it was .357 Sig etc

Whatever the hot round of the day is, they had to have it. If the FBI or State Police should choose it, then it is really hot.

I still have my 9mm (Glock 17) My ammo costs half of what theirs does & is a lot more plentiful.

Now half of them are back to 9mm & most of the rest will follow
 

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I don't seem to pay twice as much as 9 mm. Which I also carry at times, but except for self defense ammo. I load my own most of the time.
 

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Yet Homeland Security a couple of years ago bought billions of rounds of .40S&W? It is the best round to use in a HiPoint carbine.
 
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I don't think that it will ever die, you can get some good energy levels from a .40; but I don't see why rounds would cost more than 9mm's, they should be about the same in cost.
I think this may have something to do with adaptation of 9mm's instead of .40::: LEOs miss between 70—80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident.That is from the article.
Since a 9 holds more than a .40, the mighty minds will eventually go back to the 9. I think that is the rationale going on.

Read more: Is .40 S&W Dead? - Firearms News
 

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Way too much time and money went into development of .40 S&W ammo, it will never die. 10mm is way more powerful and effective and it is on life support but still not dead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Way too much time and money went into development of .40 S&W ammo, it will never die. 10mm is way more powerful and effective and it is on life support but still not dead.
as I stated its a matter of the budget money
 

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I got in to the .40 when Glock first introduced it around 1991(?). At that time I had only 1 weapon...a Colt Combat Commander .45ACP. I decided to replace the Colt with the Glock .40 cal.
15+1 in a cal. of reasonable power sounded right for me (better than eight), if I was to have only 1 handgun. I could have bought Glock's high capacity 9mm...but went with the slightly more powerful .40 The gun and cartridge have served me well since then...thanks to maintenance and practice.
 

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Yet Homeland Security a couple of years ago bought billions of rounds of .40S&W? It is the best round to use in a HiPoint carbine.
Let me rephrase that. It is the best round to use at 100+yds in a PCC VS the 9 or the .45.
 

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Of all the rounds (calibers out there) the one where the biggest improvements have been made over the past 30+ years is the 9mm cartridge. (I've had one guy actually try to tell me that the 9mm now 'exceeds' a .357 magnum in performance, which I don't believe for 1/2 second as I grew up on .357's...but they have come a long way.)

The caliber war can and probably will be discussed/argued for decades to come...but I don't think anyone can argue that the 9mm cartridge has come a long way in performance improvement during the past 30 years.

While, I personally think there are a few advantages to other cartridges...the one advantage 9mm has going for it is smaller size (diameter) allowing for more rounds in a similar sized magazine as compared to .40 or .45...and, with center-mass shots, the 9mm will do the job (barring the shooter gets center-mass hits...which is always questionable in a dynamic situation.) Having a larger number of rounds in a magazine can make a difference in a life-n-death situation...9mm costs less...and, for many, control is an issue that has to be considered, especially with 2nd and 3rd shots.

Personally, I prefer a .45 acp...but that doesn't make the 9mm caliber 'bad'...I just prefer the way the .45 feels when I shoot it...recoil is manageable, accuracy is excellent, and there's something about that big 'ole ball working in conjunction with a thing called kinetic energy that is comforting.

I think one of the bigger factors, and one that is not often discussed, is bullet weight (grains) as the heavier bullets will generate more dispersed (kinetic) energy and also generates more 'momentum' (forward force) than a lighter bullet will generate. Take the .22lr for example...it's zinging along at a rather fast speed, but has no weight to it so even when it does penetrate, it'll bounce (ricochet) off just about anything and doesn't have enough energy (momentum) to penetrate much of anything either (a good paperback book'll stop it pretty easily.) Whereas the lighter bullets have a tendency to bounce (ricochet) the .45 has more momentum to 'push-through' and continue in a relatively straight line. While the 115 grain 9mm bullet can be pushed out to 1350 fps (or even more) and generates up to 465' lbs of energy dispersed...but it takes a higher velocity + bullet expansion to achieve what a 230 grain .45 acp will accomplish traveling 400 fps slower.

When the .40 was first developed (shortened from a full-sized 10mm round) it definitely had an advantage over the 9mm (force x penetration x bullet grain) but as the 9mm has continued in it's improvement over the past 30 years (and especially over the past 10 years) it's simply closed the gap on the .40 and the .45 acp.

Will the 9mm ever 'catch' the .357SIG??? Hard to tell...the .357SIG has a definite advantage sitting on top of that necked-down .40 casing that allows for more powder + 'bottle-necked' focus to the energy created, pushing the .355 diameter bullet harder (faster) than a standard 9mm casing...I think it'll be a while before the 9mm catches up with the .357SIG round...especially since one can take advantage of the 9mm bullet's expansion improvements and sit it on the .40 casing and stay ahead of the 9mm itself.

Even though I prefer the venerable .45 acp round, whenever I do wanna shoot a 9mm bullet...I simply take it and mount it on top of a necked-down .40 S&W casing and shoot it that way...in that configuration, it then feels very similar to the .357 magnums I grew up with. :cool:
 

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I got in to the .40 when Glock first introduced it around 1991(?). At that time I had only 1 weapon...a Colt Combat Commander .45ACP. I decided to replace the Colt with the Glock .40 cal. 15+1 in a cal. of reasonable power sounded right for me (better than eight), if I was to have only 1 handgun. I could have bought Glock's high capacity 9mm...but went with the slightly more powerful .40 The gun and cartridge have served me well since then...thanks to maintenance and practice.
I had a friend who was a LGS owner (passed away in 2013 due to a recurring brain tumor) who, in his later days, as his strength waned, went from a 1911 .45 acp to a Walther .40 to a Walther 9mm as it was all he could handle...he worked until 6 weeks prior to his passing. He was an interesting guy...Vietnam vet...bail bondsman...fugitive recover agent (15 years)...LGS owner 28 years...lost of stories! He, too, was impressed with the improvements to the 9mm caliber...we would sit in his shop and discuss different calibers...45 was his favorite and he concurred that 9mm was the most-improved round since 1980 when the 'wonder-9's' first started hitting the market! He was a wealth of gun knowledge...I miss our chats!
 

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The 9mm has come a long way, until Speer came out with this.
[video=youtube;UZvkZRsVOMc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZvkZRsVOMc[/video]

There is nothing wrong with the original Gold Dot.
fail......................
 

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The original question is, 'Is the 40 caliber dead?'

My own answer: 'No, not as long as human stupidity, ballistic inexperience, and technical naïveté continue to thrive and do well.'

To quote Colonel Cooper: 'The 40 S&W cartridge is the perfect answer to a problem that doesn't exist.' I agreed with Jeff Cooper 25 years ago; and I still agree with him, today.
 

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Jeff cOOper was a sissy boy that was recoil sensitive. ;) So when all this new tech for the 9's hits the .40 it will become even mo'better.

To side track this thread.......some companies are developing rounds specifically for the 16" barreled PCC's. 9's are nice. .40's are hog doggers! Here piggie-piggie-piggie! OInk-oiink clunk!
 
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